The Trojan Seahorse
In 1970, marine architect Charlie Canby got an odd assignment: Design a 600-foot ship for an undisclosed purpose and an undisclosed customer. Only after it was built did he finally find out what it was for.
“I was dumbfounded,” he said. “I drove away in a daze. I could not believe what we were really doing.”
In this episode, reporter Daniel Ackerman tells the unbelievable story of a boat, a government conspiracy, and the birth of a new industry that could change the way we look at oceans forever.
Featuring Charlie Canby, Andrew Thaler, Wernher Krutein, and Hank Philippi Ryan.
Sherman Wetmore, lead engineer on the Glomar Explorer, looking at an oil painting of the ship raising the Soviet submarine. Credit: Central Intelligence Agency via Wikimedia Commons (Public Domain).
ADDITIONAL MATERIALS
Check out this 1975 New York Times article published after reporters discovered the true mission of the Glomar Explorer.
A corporate update for shareholders detailing The Metals Company’s recent test of deep-sea mining.
Another archival report from The New York Times details the SEC investigation into whether investors in the Glomar Explorer were misled.
SUPPORT
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CREDITS
Host: Nate Hegyi
Reported and produced by Daniel Ackerman
Mixed by Felix Poon and Taylor Quimby
Editing by Taylor Quimby
Our staff includes Justine Paradis, Marina Henke, and Jessica Hunt
Executive producer: Taylor Quimby
Rebecca Lavoie is NHPR’s Director of On-Demand Audio
Music by Blue Dot Sessions, Lennon Hutton, and Gabriel Lewis.
Outside/In is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio
Submit a question to the “Outside/Inbox.” We answer queries about the natural world, climate change, sustainability, and human evolution. You can send a voice memo to outsidein@nhpr.org or leave a message on our hotline, 1-844-GO-OTTER (844-466-8837).
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Crew members aboard the Glomar Explorer wore this patch on their uniforms. Credit: Central Intelligence Agency via Wikimedia Commons (Public Domain).
Audio Transcript
Note: Episodes of Outside/In are made as pieces of audio, and some context and nuance may be lost on the page. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
Nate Hegyi: This is Outside/In, a show where curiosity and the natural world collide. I’m Nate Hegyi.
Daniel Ackerman: All right, I've got my mic on. I think it's sounding pretty good.
This is reporter Daniel Ackerman. Typically he covers natural resources, the economy, things like that.
This has led him to develop a very specific and unusual beat.
[MUX IN: Unfinished Stories - Lennon Hutton]
Daniel Ackerman: I mean, it seems like science fiction, right? It's just a pretty out there idea to be sending giant machines to the freezing cold, pitch black depths of the ocean to collect metals that we can turn into car batteries.
We’ll get more into the actual mining part in a bit. But for starters, let me tell you: there are BIG stakes to this story.
Not just for mining companies, who are looking to make huge sums of money. But for geopolitics, national security – and the planet as a whole.
Daniel Ackerman: ethical questions about whether humans should be messing around in this remote habitat, one of the few that we haven't already totally ruined. And then there's the question of like, who owns those mineral resources at the bottom of the ocean in the first place?
Interesting stuff right?
But, let’s be honest.
When reporting these types of stories, those BIG stakes… can sometimes get lost in the lingo.
Daniel Ackerman: there's a lot of, like, bureaucrat speak and kind of like, you know, thousand page reports from the United Nations.
Like, you might be at a deep sea mining conference and hear something like Uh, the LOS governs DSM activity outside of EEZs in the A, B and J.
And then it's my job to somehow turn that into a story with, like, real characters and drama.
[MUX SWELL AND OUT]
Now, Daniel has done a great job turning that mush of acronyms into digestible information.
But as he got into this beat… he also kept hearing this ONE story.
A story that scientists and U.N. negotiators would mention in passing.
Daniel Ackerman: I always heard about this story as kind of a parenthetical, “by the way.” Um, and I decided it's time to kind of look into that, “by the way.”
And what he found was a tale so wild… it sounds like it belongs in a Jason Bourne movie.
Daniel Ackerman: Poke around any corner of the internet and there are, you know, way too many conspiracy theories out there.
[MUX IN: Cold War Games - Gabriel Lewis]
But…
[00:09:40-00:09:47] …this was a government conspiracy, not a government conspiracy theory. This was an actual government conspiracy!
[mux hits for nut graph]
Today on Outside/In, Daniel Ackerman brings us the stranger-than-fiction story… of one place the deep sea mining industry got its start.
Andrew Thaler: It’s a claw machine. Okay. Henry Kissinger built the world’s biggest claw machine.
It’s a tale that has characters, and drama…
Wernher Krutein: I was like, you've got to be kidding me. And right under my nose.
AND acronyms.
Wernher Krutein: This is the CIA's biggest project…It's a huge, huge undertaking.
And you should definitely STAY. TUNED.
[mux swells and fades for pre-roll break]
Daniel Ackerman: This is Outside/In. I’m Daniel Ackerman.
In 1970, Charlie Canby was fresh out of graduate school, when he landed his first job as a marine architect.
And His new boss gave him a mysterious assignment.
He wanted him to Design a ship… but wouldn’t say what the ship was for…or, who had commissioned it. Oh - and Charlie was to work on the entire design…alone.
Charlie Canby: “I was thrilled. It was really fun, because that's what I had studied, and to actually get to design a ship…most people get stuck with a small component, but to do the whole thing was thrilling.
Charlie sketched something out. At the request of his boss, John, the design included a 135-foot long “moon pool.” That’s basically a big hole in the bottom of the ship used to lower equipment into the ocean.
Charlie Canby: So I did those lines and John said, well, it has to be bigger.
[MUX IN: System Shell - Blue Dot Sessions]
The moon pool grew to 200 feet. The ship itself was almost the length of two football fields, end to end.
Charlie Canby: I worked on the design of the ship for about 18 months.
And over time, more architects and engineers were brought on to finalize the details. Nobody could actually do that job alone.
So one day, Charlie’s boss called him into the office and let him in on a secret: The purpose of this mysterious ship, was to do something nobody had ever done before: conduct a mining operation on the bottom of the ocean.
[MUX OUT]
[The sea: a new reserve of global resources…]
This is from a promotional video later made about the ship.
[...including metals from deep-sea nodules, potato sized objects covering thousands of square miles of sea bottom.]
Andrew Thaler: People had been thinking about mining the deep sea for at least a hundred years at that point, but no one had done it at any kind of scale.
That’s Andrew Thaler. He’s a marine scientist and an expert on deep-sea mining. He’s researched the ship that Charlie designed, the Glomar Explorer.
Andrew Thaler: The idea was that the Glomar Explorer would be the first, the first to really mine the seabed and bring up nodules for financial gain.
So maybe you’ve heard about deep-sea mining before. It’s been in the news lately. But let’s take a minute to talk about what mining companies are really after here. This isn’t like open pit mining, where you’d dig into layer after layer of rock, and then process the ore for metals.
Aspiring deep sea miners are usually after something called “nodules.”
[MUX IN: Open Road - Lennon Hutton]
Andrew Thaler: So a polymetallic nodule is a potato sized rock that is found on the bottom of the ocean in very, very deep water…and what’s curious about polymetallic nodules is that they’re not just a normal rock. They’re a rock that grows.
They grow, but very slowly, over millions of years. Something like a shark's tooth falls to the sandy seafloor…and traces of metal in the seawater begin to stick to it, one molecule at a time.
Metals like nickel, cobalt, copper and manganese…metals used in energy and defense technology…metals that are probably in your pocket, enabling you to text your mom, or listen to this podcast.
And these deep-sea nodules can be really abundant.
Andrew Thaler: And it really looks like, when you find a polymetallic nodule field, it looks like a cobblestone road on the bottom of the sea floor.
[MUX SWELL AND FADE OUT]
But the purpose of the ship wasn’t the only secret Charlie’s boss had been keeping. Turns out, the unnamed “customer” that commissioned the Glomar Explorer…was in fact a pretty well-known guy.
[...“Howard Hughes, stormy petrel of aviation, surveys the 320-ft wing of the colossus…”]
Howard Hughes.
The industrialist that spent much of the 20th Century building giant airplanes and military tech , producing Hollywood blockbusters, dating famous actresses…and becoming, at the time, the richest person on Earth.
[“In the cockpit, Hughes sits at the controls…”]
The news that Howard Hughes was interested in deep-sea mining spread fast. And it helped fuel something of a frenzy within the extraction industry.
Other companies looked into getting seabed mining vessels of their own. Mining engineers calculated the risks and rewards, And eager investors sank their money into ocean mining ventures.
Because, hey, if someone with the business acumen of Howard Hughes was into it…
…then it was probably a good idea.
[“They also promise a way to meet resource needs for centuries.”]
The Glomar Explorer was built at a shipyard in Pennsylvania. Charlie Canby, the young marine architect loved his design so much, he actually enlisted on the ship as a sailor.
He helped with maintenance tasks like welding…all very much below his pay grade as a marine architect.
Charlie Canby: So you talk about the pay, man, my dad thought I was nuts.
But…
Charlie Canby: I enjoyed being at sea. I just wanted to work on ships… I was having a ball.
To get the Glomar fully decked out for mining, Charlie helped sail it from Pennsylvania all the way to Long Beach, California.
Initially, they wanted to take a shortcut.
Charlie Canby: I telephoned the Panama Canal and I said, what’s the widest ship that can go through the Panama Canal?
Turns out, the Glomar was just too darn big to squeeze through. They had to go all the way around South America just to get to California.
But they were making progress.
And then one day, when the ship was just about ready to test all of its new mining equipment …Charlie’s boss called him to the office, again.
[MUX IN: Code Entry - Blue Dot Sessions]
Daniel Ackerman: Did you have any suspicion of why you were asked to go to the office?
Charlie Canby: No, no. I just thought it was kind of cool to get to go to the head office.
He arrived at the building. Took the elevator to the right floor.
Charlie Canby: On the door it said deep ocean mining office
Which he noticed was one floor away from a U.S. government office. Charlie would later find out, a secret staircase, hidden behind a bookshelf, connected those two floors. At any rate, Charlie took a seat.
Charlie Canby: The blinds were dropped.
And the man behind the desk started talking. Remember, Charlie had spent years both designing and working on this ship.
Charlie Canby: And then he says, that we're not mining, we're going to capture a Russian submarine.
The Glomar Explorer wasn’t really funded by Howard Hughes. Charlie had been working… for the CIA.
Charlie Canby: Oh my gosh, it was like hearing the facts of life. I don’t recall saying anything. I was probably just, just dumbfounded. I drove away in a daze.
The Glomar shifts from deep-sea mining… to secret submarines … after a break.
[MUX SWELL AND FADE OUT TO BREAK]
This is Outside/In. I’m Daniel Ackerman.
Marine architect Charlie Canby was pretty flabbergasted, when he found out the deep-sea mining ship he designed and crewed …was going to be used for a very different purpose. To capture a sunken Russian submarine.
Charlie Canby: I could not believe what we were really doing. God it was…amazing day.
And here’s when we need to widen the lens. Beyond Charlie’s personal story…to what was happening in the world during the 1960s and 70s.
[The Soviets said that they would resume testing, and hinted at a new, even more horrible weapon.]
It was the height of the Cold War. The U.S. and the Soviet Union, two nuclear superpowers, seemed to be on the perpetual brink of mutually assured destruction. It was a dangerous power struggle…but one that was woven through everyday life in America.
Charlie Canby: Going back to seventh grade. One of my neighbors had built a, a bomb shelter in this yard. I thought it was kind of cool.
Daniel Ackerman: Did you play in it?
Charlie Canby: Yeah. I thought, wouldn't it be cool if we had a nuclear attack and I can hang out in this thing.
[MUX IN: Stirring Awake - Blue Dot Sessions]
And in this world of backyard bomb shelters, fear, and brinksmanship… a nuclear armed Soviet submarine…had sank. In a remote part of the northern Pacific Ocean. And that provided a golden opportunity for U.S. intelligence agencies.
Again, here’s Andrew Thaler.
Andrew Thaler: The US government and in particular Henry Kissinger, who was really excited about accessing the submarine, they decided they wanted to get it.
Kissinger was the National Security Advisor, and later Secretary of State for then-President Richard Nixon. He thought that recovering this sunken submarine could help the U.S. learn about Soviet nuclear weapons tech… or decode intercepted communications.
Andrew Thaler: A lot of the value of intelligence gathering is that your opponents don't know you have that intelligence. If they know you have the code book, they're gonna pick different codes. So they wanted to do it in secret.
So for any of this to work…the Americans had to recover this 100-meter long, 2700-ton submarine…without anyone knowing.
To do that, they needed a very particular kind of ship. One that didn’t exist yet.
And this of course, is how the Glomar Explorer came into being.
Andrew Thaler: They needed a ship that could recover a gigantic object from the sea floor, raise it up into its hull without anyone ever seeing it, and return back to the United States under the cover of some sort of story that wouldn't raise any suspicions… And the story they told was that they were funding Howard Hughes, billionaire, entrepreneur and notable weirdo Howard Hughes to explore the deep sea for the potential for deep sea mining. That was the cover story.
[MUX SWELL AND OUT]
Howard Hughes had agreed that the CIA could use him as the cover story. But the government went further.
They needed to convince the world that deep-sea mining was a good idea. .
And to do that, they needed someone who could act as a scientific ambassador for the project. That person was mining engineer Manfred Krutein.
WERNHER KRUTEIN: Underwater was always his schtick...and he was an engineer. He helped build the submarine pens.
This is Manfred’s son, Wernher. His dad passed away in 2002, but Wernher remembers a lot of the details of his work.
Wernher Krutein: He also actually used to lecture for the United Nations. He traveled around the world and lectured at conferences related to ocean mining. So he already had that credibility and it wasn't made up.
Manfred was an early hype man for the idea that undersea nodules could satisfy the material needs of society.
So, The CIA asked him to be the public face of this major deep-sea mining project. And even though he knew it was all a sham…Manfred was thrilled to do it.
[MUX IN: Grey Hat - Blue Dot Sessions]
Wernher Krutein: It was like, okay, pal, go to your dream and dream something up with this incredible machine. ..I mean in a sense he actually truly believed like, Hey, this is like trendsetting and I can be right at the forefront of it. And I just like a kid in a candy shop, you know all the money you want. It's a huge, huge undertaking.
The project wasn’t cheap. The ship alone likely cost more than a billion dollars to build, in present day value.
And Manfred had a seemingly endless budget to travel the world. He spoke regularly to the press. He spoke at international conferences about the engineering and economics of deep-sea mining. And the whole PR blitz seemed to work.
The Glomar Explorer went from being developed under the cover of darkness, to being on the cover of magazines.
In early 1974, one magazine said the advances in metal mining it represented “could materially affect every nation on this planet.”
[MUX SWELL AND OUT]
In June of 1974… the Glomar Explorer finally departed Long Beach to complete its secret mission. The CIA had convinced the world it was there for mining… now it was time to see if the ruse would work.
Charlie Canby was onboard as a crew member.
Charlie Canby: It was exciting. We were finally doing it.
But when the Glomar Explorer arrived on site in the northern Pacific…it didn’t go unnoticed.
Charlie Canby: This was the weirdest day ever. When we were there just a short time, that’s when that Russian satellite tracking ship came.
The Soviets pulled right up alongside the Glomar Explorer.
Charlie Canby: They said, what are you doing out here? And we said, we're deep ocean mining. And, um, just acted normal. And this thing just shadowed us the whole time. So we would throw stuff overboard. Those are the days when you threw all your trash overboard. And they would pick it all up and go through it. We'd put magazines in it, you know, old Playboys and stuff for the guys. And uh, that hung around the whole time.
But Charlie and the Glomar crew began their work anyway. The ship was equipped with a giant claw, hidden from public view, that could be lowered from the moon pool.
Here’s how Andrew Thaler put it.
Andrew Thaler: It’s a claw machine. Okay. Henry Kissinger built the world’s biggest claw machine.
They lowered the claw… through miles of frigid water…where the Soviet submarine lay on the seabed.
And meanwhile the Russians looked on.
Charlie Canby: They launched this helicopter. And, I mean, you could see the star on the guy's helmet. And this thing flew all around. This really got the CIA guys nervous.
But Charlie says the Soviets…had no clue what was happening below the surface. The Glomar’s giant claw grabbed a hold of the sunken submarine. And began to lift. And lift. And lift. The process took days. The submarine inched toward the light.
Charlie Canby: When we're just about to pull it up inside the ship, this ship…
That’s the Soviet ship watching them…
Charlie Canby: Tooted its horn about three or four times and left and never came back… my theory is, this is mine, unsubstantiated, is that the CIA created a disturbance. And this was the closest ship. And they said, go investigate that. Like you're going to rob a store and you break the window down the street. That's what I think.
[MUX OUT]
And that’s how it ended. After the retrieval of the submarine, The Glomar left for the closest U.S. port, in Hawaii.
the cover story…of Howard Hughes’ triumphant deep-sea mining venture…it held.
[MUX IN: Hard Shoulder - Lennon Hutton]
That is, Until early the next year. A few investigative journalists had figured the whole thing out.
The scheme became front page news of the LA Times on February 7, 1975.
Charlie Canby: The story came out, and all my family were flabbergasted, you know, my dad would walk out the driveway, pick up the paper, and he opens it up, and he goes, Chuck, what have you been doing? I mean, everybody, they go, I can't believe it.
Even Wernher Krutein, the then-teenage son of the CIA’s deep-sea mining hype man…hadn’t suspected a thing.
Wernher Krutein: I was blown away. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. And right under my nose. I mean, I was on the ship.
I was there, I saw it…not even my mother knew.
[MUX OUT]
But…about the actual goal of the mission…to recover the Soviet sub…well, the U.S. only recovered a third of it. Turns out, says Andrew Thaler, most of the sub broke off while it was being lifted…and sank back to the seabed.
According to Manfred Krutein’s diary, which he published decades later, the Americans found a few bunk beds…a lot of potatoes…videos of ballet performances…and pornography.
Andrew Thaler: In terms of actual intelligence gathering, it was generally regarded as the most expensive failure in U.S. history.
The bodies of 6 Soviet sailors were also recovered. The US provided them with a formal burial at sea…complete with the Soviet anthem.
[Play a bit of the Soviet national anthem. Fade down under next track and completely out gradually under next bit of tape]
The tape of the burial was later made public.
[“The officers and men of this ill-fated USSR submarine, pendant number 722, whom we honor here today, have reached their journey’s end…”]
Here’s the thing, though. The Glomar mission may not have provided any real intelligence for the CIA. But it did something else. The cover story about deep-sea mining – was so convincing…it fueled the growth of a new industry.
Hank Phillipi Ryan is a journalist who helped break the Glomar story at the time.
Hank Ryan: There was no such thing as deep sea mining when this all happened.
At least, nothing beyond exploration.
Hank Ryan: The CIA had come up with this idea…with Howard Hughes, and other companies thought, these people must know something that we don't know, and if they can do it, we can certainly do it. And as a result of a fantasy, this industry began to emerge.
Here’s Andrew Thaler again.
Andrew Thaler: These companies saw that there was a potential there. It did in a lot of ways kind of jumpstart the industry by providing that initial seed funding. Um, interestingly enough, it did more for the deep sea mining industry than it did for the intelligence community.
The industry that emerged in part from all of this…well it’s still emerging actually. There hasn’t been any big commercial-scale mining of the deep ocean. But that may be about to change.
[“Today, the race is on for the estimated trillions of dollars of strategic minerals on the ocean floor…”]
[President Trump signed an executive order yesterday saying that the U.S. should get into the business of deep-sea mining.]
[Deep-sea mining companies are now scrambling to get their hands on what they love to describe as a battery in a rock. ]
[MUX IN: Trench and Ivory - Blue Dot Sessions]
One of those companies…is boldly called…The Metals Company. Three years ago, it ran a test, out in a patch of the Pacific Ocean, about halfway between Hawaii and Mexico… called the Clarion Clipperton Zone.
The company basically vacuumed thousands of tons of polymetallic nodules off the seafloor. Now, they want to scale that up…and launch the first full mining operation of its kind.
Andrew Thaler says the company’s sales pitch has a lot to do with fighting climate change.
Andrew Thaler: The nodule miners have been leaning really heavy on the fact that they're a green industry. Uh, the minerals they're going after are important for the green transition. They are essential for electric vehicle batteries.
And the companies say…getting these minerals from land…doesn’t have the best track record. Terrestrial mining is dangerous. And it often means slashing rainforests, poisoning drinking water, and even displacing entire communities.
So the remote seafloor, which just so happens to be covered in nickel and cobalt…is the answer.
Here’s The Metals Company CEO Gerard Barron in a recent interview with NPR.
Gerard Barron: So if you had to locate a large, abundant rich resource anywhere, this is the perfect place. There's no alternative for this part of the sea floor. You can't grow crops there. People can't live there. It's perfect.
But not everyone agrees with that assessment.
Andrew Thaler: I’m torn and I’ve been torn for a long time.
Andrew Thaler says, nearly every time scientists venture to the deep-sea, they discover new, often bizarre species. Fish that make their own light. Ghostly sea cucumbers, covered in pale white spikes. Something called a deep-sea slime star. Those animals…could wind up as collateral damage.
Andrew Thaler: Most of these companies are proposing running basically a plow across the seafloor, across thousands of acres of the seafloor, to scoop up these nodules.
[MUX SWELL AND OUT]
And Thaler says, it’s not like opening up the ocean to this new form of extraction…is going to mean the end of mining on land.
Andrew Thaler: I don't see Indonesia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo shutting down their mines anytime soon. So, in that context, it becomes an additive impact rather than a transition away from the current impacts. And so, I'm not convinced that starting a new form of mining is the right environmental choice at the moment.
And this is all a very live debate. Right now, a United Nations group, called the International Seabed Authority, or ISA, is drawing up regulations for a future deep-sea mining industry.
The group's origins date back to the ‘70s… That’s when countries began negotiating a treaty sometimes called the Constitution for the Ocean.
And treaty envisions the mineral resources beneath the High Seas…as the common heritage of humankind. As something that belongs to all of us…out there beneath the ocean, beyond the control of any one nation.
Almost every country on Earth has ratified the treaty.. But there’s one big holdout.
[MUX IN: Cross Purposes - Blue Dot Sessions]
The United States.
So when Donald Trump came into office for his second term…and signed an executive order to jump-start the deep-sea mining industry, The Metals Company made a decision.
Andrew Thaler: That the ISA negotiations are not proceeding fast enough. And from their perspective, that's probably true. They are a commercial company. They're dependent on investor funding. They have a burn rate. They can't afford to wait another five or 10 years for the negotiations to be finished.
So The Metals Company applied directly to the Trump administration…for approval to mine the international waters of the Clarion Clipperton Zone. The Seabed Authority says this would be a violation of international law, akin to stealing the common heritage of humankind.
The Trump administration says it’s not bound by that law, contained in a treaty it never ratified. So the whole world is at something of a standoff over deep-sea mining.
And through everything that led to this standoff…all the international negotiations…the development of mining technology…The Glomar Explorer itself was there.
The ship didn’t just go away after recovering a third of that Russian submarine in 1974. The Glomar’s builder was investigated by the SEC for misleading investors…which, well, it’s hard to dispute that.
But then, it really did go on to become a deep-sea mining exploration ship.
It helped pioneer some of the science and technology that’s made actual mining possible today.
Andrew Thaler: It stayed in operation into the nineties. It was being used by Lockheed, it was being used by other, uh, deep sea mining contractors. It did a lot of the initial nodule surveys in the seventies and eighties that went into kind of inform the current crop of environmental impact assessments as well as the current financial models for things.
Sometimes, if you repeat a lie often enough…it starts to feel true. Especially, says journalist Hank Philippi Ryan…if that lie is 600 feet long, with a steel hull.
Hank Ryan: It's almost hilarious to think about the changes in the world that happened as a result of a fantasy of a falsehood. Of a pretense that was designed to be a distraction.
By the way, the two-thirds of that Russian submarine that the Glomar failed to retrieve…presumably the part with the code books and nuclear bombs…It’s still down there at the bottom of the ocean.
Now, nobody seems very interested in the wreck.
What they really care about are the potato-sized rocks it’s laying on.
[mux swells]
Nate Hegyi: That’s it for today.
If you want to learn more about the debate over deep-sea mining…including a proposal to mine in U.S. waters off the coast of American Samoa…you can check out Daniel’s Substack newsletter. It’s called Seabed Spotlight.
This episode was reported and produced by Daniel Ackerman. It was Mixed by Felix Poon. It was edited by our Executive Producer, Taylor Quimby. Our staff includes Justine Paradis and Marina Henke. Rebecca Lavoie is NHPR’s Director of On-Demand Audio
Music by Blue Dot Sessions, Lennon Hutton, and Gabriel Lewis.
If you liked this show, subscribe to the podcast and check out our massive backlog of episodes. You won’t regret it.
I’m Nate Hegyi. Outside/In is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio