Hot Olympic Summer: Is Paris Greenwashing the Games?
Will Simone Biles live up to her moniker as greatest gymnast of all time? Will Lebron James and Team USA continue to dominate men's basketball? And will the Paris 2024 Games be the most sustainable in modern Olympic history?
While billions of viewers tune in for the drama of athletes competing on a global stage, climate scientists are tuning in to Paris's climate promises – from the locally sourced catering and carbon neutral Olympic cauldron, to head-scratching “solutions” like a sidewalk made of seashells, and not installing air conditioning in athletes’ housing.
Are these solutions making a difference? Or is it plain and simple greenwashing? We put these questions to the test in this episode on the XXXIII Olympiad. Let the games begin!
Featuring Martin Müller.
A graphic of Martin Müller’s model for determining the sustainability of Olympic games (Sourced from Nature).
LINKS
Paris in preparation for the 2024 Olympics. Photo by Conall. (CC BY 2.0).
Read Martin Müller’s paper evaluating the sustainability of summer and winter Olympic games from the past 3 decades.
Listen to Civics 101’s episode on the politics of the Olympic Games.
An Air France plane advertising the 2024 Games. Photo by Riik@mctr (CC BY 2.0).
Check out scenes from Olympic opening ceremonies from London 1908 to Rio 2016.
Watch a timelapse video of construction of the temporary beach volleyball venue in front of the Eiffel Tower.
Read up on fun Olympics trivia, like what the most common surname of athletes is, and about the time two athletes who tied for second place cut their silver and bronze medals and fused them together to make two “friendship medals.”
CREDITS
Host: Nate Hegyi
Reported, produced, and mixed by Felix Poon
Editing by Taylor Quimby
Our staff includes Justine Paradis and Marina Henke
Our intern is Catherine Hurley.
Executive producer: Taylor Quimby
Rebecca Lavoie is NHPR’s Director of On-Demand Audio
Music by Blue Dot Sessions, Joe E. Lee, Jay Varton, Arthur Benson, Philip Ayers, Kikoru, Trabant 33, and Phoenix Tail.
Outside/In is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio
If you’ve got a question for the Outside/Inbox hotline, give us a call! We’re always looking for rabbit holes to dive down into. Leave us a voicemail at: 1-844-GO-OTTER (844-466-8837). Don’t forget to leave a number so we can call you back.
Audio Transcript
Note: Episodes of Outside/In are made as pieces of audio, and some context and nuance may be lost on the page. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
Nate Hegyi: This is Outside/In, I’m Nate Hegyi.
Felix Poon: And I’m Felix Poon.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: And we want you to imagine you’re an Olympic athlete…. You’ve just arrived in Paris during the hottest part of the year… and your brand new hotel… has no A.C.
[MUX OUT – record scratch]
Could be a cultural thing, right?
Martin Muller: From a European perspective, coming to the US, I find air conditioning excessive.
Nate Hegyi: This is Martin Muller. He’s a professor of geography and sustainability at the University of Lausanne in Switzerland.
Martin Muller: Most people in Paris would not have air conditioning actually. … It's something that's relatively unusual and would be considered as exceptional.
Felix Poon: And it’s true, A.C. is way less common in Europe – fewer than 1 in 10 households use AC, compared to almost 9 in 10 in the US.
Nate Hegyi: But actually, the lack of A.C. at the games is about something else. It’s part of a promise Paris made… to be the MOST SUSTAINABLE Olympic games in modern history.
[MUX]
Organizers have traded A.C. units for building techniques designed to keep the Olympic Village cool with less energy: better insulation, heat pumps that circulate cooler air from underground, and… fans.
Felix Poon: I wonder if it’s, you know those little handheld ones that have teeny tiny blades?
Nate Hegyi: Yeah with the little sprayer?
Felix Poon: All of which would be fine… if it weren’t for some countries actively revolting. A bunch of teams are bringing their own portable AC units.
Martin Muller: As an Olympic team that wants to have top performance, you don't want to risk anything, right? So they're hedging their bets.
Nate Hegyi: So, Martin, does this kind of backfire on those commitments to have, like, the most sustainable Olympics?
Martin Muller: One of the things that you need to realize is that there are some actions that are very much touted and marketed, but that are not in themselves making a massive change in the sustainability of the event.
So national teams bringing their own AC units is, in the end, a tempest in a teapot.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: So today on the show – will Paris 2024 be the most sustainable Olympiad ever?
Felix Poon: Or are these promises mostly greenwashing?
Nate Hegyi: And in the grand scheme of things, does the sustainability of a sporting event held every four years even really matter?
Felix Poon: Let the games begin!
[Felix hums the NBC Olympic theme song]
Felix Poon: So Nate, before we go on talking about the sustainability of the Paris Olympics, I wanna test you on Olympics trivia. And, if you get two out of three questions right, you’re a winner. Are you ready to play?
Nate Hegyi: This isn’t like Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me is it?
Felix Poon: Oh we’re not ripping off any public radio show, quiz shows at all.
So, what did athletes wear at the ancient Olympics in Greece?
Nate Hegyi: Nothing.
[BELL SFX]
Felix Poon: What! You knew that!
Nate Hegyi: I did know that. I was, you know, a teenage boy laughing at the idea of Greek men wrestling naked against each other.
Felix Poon: Yeah apparently they competed in the nude. Which, you know is very sustainable. They really had a low carbon footprint back in the day.
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, yeah.
Felix Poon: Okay, are you ready for your next question?
Nate Hegyi: Yeah.
Felix Poon: In preparation for the 2014 Sochi Winter Games, what did organizers stash 16 million cubic feet of just in case they needed it?
[BELL SFX]
Felix Poon: You’re right.
Nate Hegyi: Oh! I’m an Olympics expert! Where did they store it?
Felix Poon: So they put them under tarps.
Nate Hegyi: I would’ve used Yeti coolers.
Felix Poon: Yeti should’ve sponsored the winter Olympics.
Last question. Surfing became an Olympic sport in 2020, and this year it’ll be the event held the furthest away from the city of Paris. Where will it be held?
Nate Hegyi: Oh, my European geography is poor. I’m going to say, I actually think it’s gonna be held in northern France. I think it’s gonna be held on the English Channel.
[BUZZER SFX]
Felix Poon: Not far enough. So it’s gonna be held in French Tahiti which is an island in the South Pacific that’s almost 10 thousand miles away, which sets the record for the event held the furthest away from the host city. And supposedly, was done for sustainability reasons.
Nate Hegyi: Really?
Felix Poon: Well we’re gonna get more into that later. So, I’m gonna play the part of Bill Curtis here, and tell you, Nate, you got 2 out of 3 questions which means you are a winner.
Nate Hegyi: Yes! Do I get your voice, in my…thank you.
Felix Poon: Yeah, on your answering machine.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: This is a good segue, because speaking of climate change, the Olympics are getting hot! The Tokyo games in 2021 were the hottest in history, and this year Paris could be even worse.
Felix Poon: Just look at the heatwaves in Europe. Last year they were so bad, they killed tens of thousands. Even though there’s no official naming system for heat waves, people started using viral nicknames like Charon, the ferryman of the underworld, or Cerberus.
Martin Muller: Cerberus is the many headed dog that watches the entrance to hell.
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, you need some demonic names for some demonic weather events.
Felix Poon: That again, was Martin Muller, and Martin has spent time studying the sustainability of the Olympic games, past and present.
Martin Muller: That kind of puts a question mark behind the future of the Olympic Games, in particular the Winter games, because they're running out of places that can host the Winter games.
But also increasingly for the Summer games, because if the risk of those heat waves is increasing that restricts the kinds of cities that can host those events.
You know, some things you can control the climate if you put them indoors, but in others you can't.
So you can't put the marathon indoors.
Or you're looking at more fundamental changes, like moving them into the fall where the climate is a little more moderate, typically in most places. But that kind of upsets other things… other sports schedules and so on.
Nate Hegyi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because you've got like, like basketball starts in the fall.
Martin Muller: Exactly. You have all the major leagues. So it's not very easy to do that at all.
Nate Hegyi: This is why Paris made a bold commitment when they were awarded the games in 2017: They said they would cut emissions compared to the 2012 London games in half.
Felix Poon: And over the past few years, they’ve been telling the world exactly how they planned to do it.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: Okay so step one: Build less stuff.
Felix Poon: Construction is a major driver of emissions… And a lot of host cities build tons of stadiums and sports complexes from scratch
Nate Hegyi: And, according to Martin’s research, winter games tend to be worse at this because there‘s so much very-specific infrastructure they need.
Like, ski jumps, bobsled courses, giant skating rinks – these are things most cities don’t have just lying around.
Felix Poon: And historically, a lot of that stuff just gets abandoned afterwards. Did you ever see those pictures of old Olympic venues Nate?
Nate Hegyi: No, but I have a feeling you’re gonna show me.
Felix Poon: Yeah so, take a look at this… These are pictures of what the venues from Athens 2004 look like now.
Nate Hegyi: Ahh, kind of looks like um, I don’t know, a set from 28 Days Later. Like some zombie movie. Like everything is just abandoned.
Felix Poon: Yeah I was gonna say it kind of looks like the set of The Last of Us.
Nate Hegyi: That’s a second use for these places, you know, apocalyptic movies… shoot ‘em here.
Felix Poon: So Paris doesn’t want this to happen there. One thing they’re doing is relying on a lot of infrastructure that’s already there.
Nate Hegyi: Right, there’s only two totally new permanent sites they built: the aquatics center, and the Olympic Village. To build them they used sustainable materials, like wood and low-carbon concrete instead of steel.
Felix Poon: And they’re confident these sites won’t be abandoned. They’re gonna turn the Olympic village into apartments and offices afterwards, and the aquatics center is gonna be the local public pool for one of France’s poorest districts.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: Greening the Olympics step two. This one is sooooo exciting: promote public transit.
Felix Poon: Oh, it’s exciting to me Nate!
Nate Hegyi: I know it is, of course it is. You love public transit!
Felix Poon: Yeah, so they’re trying to encourage spectators and teams to travel by train instead of flying.
And most of the events are within a few miles of each other, and reachable by bus or train.
Except for the surfing venue in Tahiti of course.
Nate Hegyi: Which they say was chosen for sustainability reasons: they say being further away means fewer spectators, fewer flights.
Felix Poon: But maybe also… better waves?
Nate Hegyi: Probably.
Felix Poon: Maybe prettier waves?
Nate Hegyi: Definitely prettier waves, than surfing the Seine.
[MUX fades]
Nate Hegyi: Step three is kind of built into Paris’s infrastructure. Organizers have promised the electricity used to power the games will be carbon-neutral, which is easier there than in most places because France’s grid runs mostly on nuclear energy.
Felix Poon: Plus, they’re gonna run generators on biofuel or batteries. And that new aquatics center is covered in tons of solar panels.
Nate Hegyi: As for the rest of what they’re doing…I kind of wonder if we’re edging into PR’sville.
Felix Poon: Yeah there’s the A.C. we talked about, which may or may not be effective. Then there’s the food athletes and volunteers are eating, they’re sourcing it locally-ish… and they’re providing more vegetarian options.
Nate Hegyi: Which like, locally, doesn’t even mean it’s necessarily more sustainable. We talked about that in an earlier episode.
Felix Poon: Exactly.
Nate Hegyi: Let’s just hope they’re offering enough protein so Team USA doesn’t bring their own chicken and beef.
Felix Poon: Ooooh. And then… there’s the Olympic torch.
NH : Ahh, the Olympic torch. So a quick reminder for folks, the torch relay starts months before the Games. Thousands of torchbearers relay it from Olympia, Greece, across the world and to the opening ceremony where it culminates in the lighting of the cauldron.
[CLIP: Announcer: And look, it’s Muhammad Ali!]
Felix Poon: Do you remember this one Nate?
Nate Hegyi: Oh yeah, this is one of the most iconic videos from my childhood.
Felix Poon: My favorite was the time an archer shot the flame with a bow and arrow into the cauldron.
Nate Hegyi: What?
Felix Poon: I’m telling you, Barcelona, 1992!
Nate Hegyi: I’ve never seen this!
[CLIP: 1992 Barcelona Opening Ceremony]
Nate Hegyi: Guy in a white shirt…lights an arrow. And he’s aiming up into the sky, and he fires it. And…oh, perfect shot! Right into the cauldron.
Felix Poon: I loved it. You know, nine-year old Felix, like, I was like, damn, the Olympics is awesome, this is fun!
[MUX fades]
Felix Poon: Anyway, there’s a carbon footprint to all this that I think a lot of people might not even think about. The 2008 Beijing Olympics torch relay for example…it added at least 11 million pounds of carbon to the atmosphere…any guesses why?
Nate Hegyi: Because it’s a coal-fired Olympic flame? I don’t know.
Felix Poon: It’s because it had it’s own private jet …it toured 23 major cities across the world, burning half a million gallons of fuel, and setting a Guinness World Record for the longest distance of any Olympic torch relay, 85,000 miles…
Nate Hegyi: I’m just saying Felix, they better have turned the flame off when it was in the plane.
[MUX IN]
Nate Hegyi: So this year, the relay had much lower emissions because it was a more understated affair. Back in April it traveled on a century-old 3-mast ship across the Mediterranean from Greece to France.
[MUX FADES]
In fact, the flame is doing all of its overseas travel by boat.
Felix Poon: Then there’s the cauldron itself which used to emit a lot of carbon, like, just think of a giant open-air natural gas furnace that’s left on for weeks.
But in the past couple of games they burned hydrogen instead – which only emits water vapor instead. And, that’s probably the plan for Paris too, but we won’t know for sure until after this episode comes out.
Nate Hegyi: Maybe it’ll just be like a big electric candle.
Felix Poon: Yeah, we’ll just need these giant fans that are just painted red and move back and forth?
Nate Hegyi: Yeah exactly!
[MUX]
Felix Poon: So what really makes for a sustainable Olympics? How do you measure it – and how does Paris stack up against other Olympic events? We’ll get into all that after the break.
[BREAK]
Nate Hegyi: Welcome back to Outside/In, I’m Nate Hegyi here with Felix Poon.
Felix Poon: Bonjour, salut.
Nate Hegyi: Bonjour.
Nate Hegyi: Felix, what are your favorite sports to watch at the Olympics?
Felix Poon: Hm, I do like gymnastics. But, I gotta say volleyball. Indoor, not beach volleyball. Beach volleyball just makes me exhausted…like, how do you run through all that sand?
Nate Hegyi: I know, exactly, running through sand…
Felix Poon: It looks so exhausting.
Nate Hegyi: So they’re actually holding the beach volleyball event in front of the Eiffel Tower this time. That should be fun.
Felix Poon: What about you? What’s your favorite event to watch?
Nate Hegyi: Um… probably… hockey, because I play hockey. But also you gotta go with one of the off the wall stranger sports you don’t get to see every day. So I do have to go with like luge. Or skeleton. Honestly skeleton.
Felix Poon: So you’re a winter Olympics guy, you’re zoning out for the summer Olympics?
Nate Hegyi: Oh yeah, I don’t… I’m not… the Summer Olympics, I don’t know. I heard that skateboarding is part of the summer Olympics. And I think rock climbing is part of the summer Olympics which is kinda cool.
Felix Poon: Oh that could be fun to watch.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: There is another competition going on, this one is for the title of most sustainable modern Olympic Games. But how do you even measure that?
We asked Martin Muller to be our judge. And, he and a team of researchers studied the sustainability of every Olympic Games since Barcelona 1992 – Felix’s favorite -- and he says, it’s not just about C02
Martin Muller: We built a model of what it means to be sustainable, a model with nine indicators, three indicators in the ecological domain…
Nate Hegyi: Including new construction, visitor footprint, and event size…
Martin Muller: …three in the social, and three in the economic.
Nate Hegyi: …whether the games have public approval, whether the games are operating on a balanced budget… stuff like that.
Martin Muller: And so we put those indicators into the model. And….we found some really interesting things.
So the most interesting one perhaps, is that since the 1990s, you have more and more talk about sustainability, but actually the results get worse and worse. So the rhetoric doesn't really match the reality. That's the first thing we found.
The second interesting thing we found is that the games that cried out most loudly about being green were not necessarily the greenest ones and that some of the games that didn't claim much sustainability were actually relatively sustainable.
Felix Poon: Who ran the greenest Games?
Nate Hegyi: According to Martin’s model it was, drumroll…
[DRUMROLL SDX]
Nate Hegyi: Salt Lake City’s 2002 Winter Games – which, by the way, he says weren't actually that sustainable… they were just better than the others.
Felix Poon: I don’t even remember those games. Do you Nate? You’re a winter games lover.
Nate Hegyi: Yeah! I’m also a political junkie. And, that’s where Mitt Romney made his name.
Felix Poon: At the Olympics?
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, he ran the Salt Lake City 2002 Winter Games, and he did, according to him, a very very good job.
Felix Poon: So what did they do right in Salt Lake City?
Martin Muller: They ran a relatively small event for the time relying on existing venues.
And then as a consequence of that, the social impacts were not so massive as with other games, because if you run a big construction program, you might have to resettle people, you might run up against lots of resistance. But the games there actually had also significant approval from the local population. So it really was a combination of factors that made the Salt Lake City games stick out.
Nate Hegyi: As for the least sustainable Games? Martin’s research found that dubious honor goes to the 2014 Winter Games in Sochi, Russia.
Martin Muller: High-cost overruns, significant displacement of people, massively sized event where it’s basically constructed from scratch, almost every venue that they used.
Felix Poon: So Sochi is right next to a national park with some of the greatest wildlife diversity in Russia. To build the games’ venues, Russia clear cut thousands of acres of forest, destroying animal habitat and migration routes. And the government persecuted environmentalists who pushed back, locking up one journalist and causing another to flee to Europe in exile.
Nate Hegyi: I can’t believe Vladimir Putin would do such a thing.
Felix Poon: No.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: Getting back to Paris, it’s too early to know how the 2024 games will stack up against other host cities but Martin is already grading some aspects of the event.
Martin Muller: So one of the most impactful things that they have done is actually scaling down construction to a minimum.
And instead they've invested more into public transit. And that is also something that's going to stay and it's going to last. And it's a positive legacy for the city itself.
Nate Hegyi: And what's one thing that they're doing that you feel is like mainly just for show?
Martin Muller: There's always space you need to fill between a match or before a match. And so the typical images you get is of the Olympic Cauldron or of Olympic Stadium.
Nate Hegyi: Right
Martin Muller: And so you need to give some talking points to the moderators – “Okay, well, the Olympic cauldron this year is fueled by hydrogen, which presents a major achievement and is a step towards a more sustainable society,”... whatever the moderator would say, right? I mean it's a drop in the bucket, compared to the other emissions that are there.
Nate Hegyi: Do you think when the Paris Olympics are all said and done, that they will be the most sustainable games that we've seen?
Martin Muller: So we've done a preliminary evaluation based on the preliminary data that we have from Paris, and we ran that in our model. And it doesn’t look like that.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: So that goal that Paris had of cutting emissions in half compared to London 2012? Martins says, they’ve backed away from those numbers in recent sustainability reports. Sooo, yeah, it’s probably not happening.
Martin Muller: You know, many more spectators are coming in by plane than they probably had in their calculations.
Nate Hegyi: And on Martin’s 9-point model… It does not look like they’re going to beat out Salt Lake City.
Martin Muller: They are middling in our model. So they are neither particularly good nor particularly bad. They're better than some more recent summer games, but not massively so. So, it's not a major step change in how the Olympics are run.
Felix Poon: Okay, so like, what lessons can our future Olympic events take from this?
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, so I asked Martin for some takeaways.
Nate Hegyi: I come to you. I'm the head of the Olympics, Martin. Give me three tips. What three things can I do to have a really sustainable event?
Martin Muller: So the first thing to do is to make do with the existing infrastructure that you have in a place, and if you don't have it in a city, think a little bit more widely. Look at the country, the region, look at neighboring countries. The second thing to do is reduce the size of your event, right? So much of the impact comes through the masses of people that need to be moved on, public transit, that need to be housed, need to be fed, and so on. So do make it a small event. And keep in mind that 99.9% of the people are going to watch your event on television anyway. You know, the Olympics are a media event. They're not a tourism event as such.
Nate Hegyi: But what about… I always thought that one of the big draws of having an Olympic Games in your country or your town is that you're pulling in, you know, tourism dollars. I mean, what about spectator tickets? Don't you need that to kind of get into the black to, to not be in incredible amount of debt for, for setting this up?
Martin Muller: So this income from spectator, or from ticket sales is actually only the third largest income source. So the two largest ones are broadcasting revenues from licensing. And the second one is sponsorship from companies. Spectator revenue is a third one. It's not unimportant, but it's not the major one.
And in terms of the ecological footprint, one thing that they could do is shift a little more towards spectators that come from the region, rather than those that come from the other side of the world.
And the second thing to say about tourism also in terms of the tourism dollars that get spent in the city is that, you know most cities in August, it's high season. Paris is going to be completely booked with or without the Olympics in August. So the Olympic visitors are just replacing visitors that would have come anyway.
And often Olympic visitors actually spend less in the city itself because they're mostly in the stadium.
Martin Muller: So if you ever wanted to visit the Louvre and don't want to stand in a queue, well, the best time is to go during the Olympic Games because you'll have very few people there. And, you know, you just have the city center of Paris to yourself.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: So what do you make of all this Felix?
Felix Poon: Well, so much of Martin’s research comes down to construction - the less you build, the more sustainable things are. So… it does seem like the answer is basically like “Reduce” and “Reuse,” which I’m not gonna lie is kind of the unsexy thing in sustainability. Usually what gets talked up are the fancy technology or quirky things.
Like the seashell sidewalk, have you heard of this Nate?
Nate Hegyi: No, what’s that?
Felix Poon: So like, there’s this sidewalk made of seashells in the Olympic Village that’s supposed to absorb water on rainy days, and then when it evaporates on sunny days it's supposed to cool the air for people walking on it.
Do you think anyone’s gonna try to sell sea shells on the seashell sidewalk Nate? Do you wanna say that 5 times fast?
Nate Hegyi: She sells… sea… shells, she sells… dammit! This is a struggle. You really shouldn’t have made me do this.
Felix Poon: It’s okay. I give you, I give you a bronze medal for that.
Nate Hegyi: I wouldn’t give myself that! I do not get a bronze for that one.
Felix Poon: Point is, that’s the sort of thing you can write a neat press release about, but it’s just not the kind of thing that matters most.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: I know, Martin, you spent a lot of your professional career focusing on the Olympics, but like, isn't there a bigger fish to fry here, like, fossil fuel companies? Transportation? The food we eat? They all have, like, a bigger impact on the planet than the Olympics. Like, why? Why should we care about it being sustainable?
Martin Muller: Well, the first question is why should we care about the Olympics in general? Right. So yeah, exactly… they're perhaps more urgent issues out there. So, the first reason is because they're extremely visible and they can transport and convey the message: “We don't care at all. You know, whatever's happening is happening, we'll just keep up business as usual.” Or they could do the opposite. They can say, “hey, look, we could do stuff differently. Look at us and you can do it too, right?”
But you're right that in terms of the absolute weight the Olympic Games are a drop in the bucket. But they are something that people like to watch and where you also get people's attention. And sometimes you need to look where people are looking and not necessarily where, you know, where the big fish are in the first place.
[MUX]
Nate Hegyi: So that’s it for our show today - although one thing to note is some might argue that the point of the Olympics is to promote peace and global cooperation – and that itself can possibly lead to more sustainability.
We’re not opening that can of worms here, but if you wanna hear more about the geopolitics of the Olympic Games, you should check out our sister podcast Civics 101 – they have an episode on that very subject out today, and we’re going to have a link to it in the show notes.
Felix Poon: And we wanna hear from you. Do you think sustainability should be an important part of the Olympics? If you had the power to change them, what would you do differently?
Nate Hegyi: You can email us at outsidein@nhpr.org. You can also find us on social media, we’re AT outsideinradio. Alright that is the end of our show today. I feel like, Felix, I need that NBC Olympic music.
Felix Poon: [Hums Olympic music]
Nate Hegyi: This episode was produced by you, Felix Poon. It was edited by our head coach, Taylor Quimby. Rebecca Lavoie is our head-head couch, NHPR’s Director of On-Demand audio. I’m your host, Nate Hegyi.
Felix Poon: Our staff include Justine Paradis and Marina Henke. Our intern is Catherine Hurley.
Nate Hegyi: Music by Blue Dot Sessions, Joe E. Lee, Jay Varton, Arthur Benson, Philip Ayers, Kikoru, Trabant 33, and Phoenix Tail and of course Felix Poon.
Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Outside/In is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio. That was commitment Felix!
[FELIX HUMMING FADES]