Frog Sex, Tree Soap, and Other Signs of Spring
It’s that time again, when scientists everywhere hold their breath as we open our listener mailbag. It’s spring in the northern hemisphere, so the theme of the questions in this episode is “growth” — with the exception of the last question, which is… kind of the opposite.
Question 1: Um, what are those frogs doing? (see picture below)
Question 2: What’s that white foam that forms on trees when it rains?
Question 3: Does moss get damaged when you walk on it?
Question 4: What’s the best filling for raised beds in the garden?
Question 5: How long does it take for a dead squirrel to decompose?
The frogs in question, pictured in Granada, Spain. Credit: Louise Liller.
The mysterious tree bubbles on a broad leaf maple. Credit Jo Zimny on Flickr (CC BY-NC-ND 2.0).
Thanks for the excellent questions, Louise, Mihaela, Tricia, Kevin, and Nicolas! Do you have a question about the natural world? Submit it to the Outside/Inbox! Send a voice memo to outsidein@nhpr.org or call our hotline: 1-844-GO-OTTER (844-466-8837). Don’t forget to leave a number so we can call you back.
Featuring: Nat Cleavitt, Rebecca Roy, Yolanda Burrell, and Sibyl Bucheli
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LINKS
Check out one of many salacious articles about frog sex, or read the somewhat less sensational study about underwater breeding chambers.
And here’s one more study about frog sex; specifically simultaneous polyandry.
CREDITS
Host: Nate Hegyi
Reported and produced by: Taylor Quimby, Justine Paradis, Felix Poon, and Jessica Hunt
Mixed by Taylor Quimby, Justine Paradis, and Felix Poon
Editing: Taylor Quimby, with help from Rebecca Lavoie and Justine Paradis
Executive producer: Rebecca Lavoie
Music: Blue Dot Sessions
Theme music: Breakmaster Cylinder.
Outside/In is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio
Audio Transcript
Note: Episodes of Outside/In are made as pieces of audio, and some context and nuance may be lost on the page. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
Nate Hegyi: Ta ta, ta ta.
Taylor Quimby: I like your check. It was like a circus noise.
Nate Hegyi: I was singing to you. I was making beautiful music, and you interrupted it.
Taylor Quimby: Sorry.
Nate Hegyi: All right. It's that time where we answer your questions about the natural world in the radio business. They call this a mailbag segment, and we lovingly refer to ours as the Outside/Inbox. Hey, Taylor.
[theme]
Nate Hegyi: Hey Taylor Quimby.
Taylor Quimby: Hey, Nate Hegyi.
Nate Hegyi: So spring can be an incredible season from a visual standpoint, right? But this is a podcast. So what do you think are the iconic sounds of spring?
Taylor Quimby: For me, northeast, I definitely think peepers.
Nate Hegyi: What are peepers?
Taylor Quimby: Peepers, like, peep peep peep. Well, I'm not doing it right. You know, spring peepers. The frogs.
[sound of peepers]
Nate Hegyi: Oh, yeah.
Taylor Quimby: Yeah. It's a small chorus frog, widespread through the eastern United States and Canada.
Nate Hegyi: Yeah. On Google, I'm looking at one that's like the size of a finger. It's like literally sitting on a guy's finger.
My sounds of spring are definitely birds up really, really early. I think of lawnmowers.
[Lawnmower SFX]
Taylor Quimby: It's like a thing that dads start to do at like five in the morning when they hit a certain age.
Nate Hegyi: Uh huh. Same with sprinklers going off. They get really excited about like the sprinklers got to go off before the sun rises.
[sprinkler sfx]
Yeah, there it is.
Taylor Quimby: What about sneezing? That's a classic sound of spring.
Nate Hegyi: Or just sounding like this because your nose is plugged out? Yep. I always make, like, a spring playlist where I'm running and it's got, like, you know, funky songs and happy songs.
Taylor Quimby: And so it's not like you're looking for songs that have the word spring in the title. You're looking just for, like, upbeat.
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, I'm like, over, like, the Bon Iver and, like, Moody, Sufjan Stevens time of the winter where it's like, pensive folk.
Taylor Quimby: Nick Drake. You're done.
[mux]
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, you're done. You finish. Cancel you. Nick Drake. So in celebration of spring, we asked you all for questions on the theme of Growing and Tailor. We got some interesting ones, didn't we?
Taylor Quimby: Yes, we did. And speaking of peepers, the first one we're going to briefly tackle is amphibian related. So Louise Lillard posted a photo on our Twitter account and asked, Can you tell me what is happening here with these frogs? I mean, I have a suspicion, but it seems kind of extreme even for nature. Nate, can you describe this picture that she sent us?
Nate Hegyi: Yeah, it looks like it's out of a horror movie. There is a there's a there's a pool, a shallow clear pool kind of surrounded by leaves and grass. And in the middle, it's what looks like some sort of I would say like four or five goblins, all huddling together in some sort of satanic prayer.
Taylor Quimby: Okay, fair enough. If you zoom in, you can make out that these are several frogs. I can't say how many.
Nate Hegyi: They’re frogs?!
Taylor Quimby: Yeah. Zoom in.
Nate Hegyi: Oh, I see. They're frogs now. I can see a little frog head right there.
Nate Hegyi: It's like a ball of frogs.
Taylor Quimby: What the heck is that? Why are they doing that?
Taylor Quimby: I wasn't able to identify the specific species of frogs pictured here, but I was able to confirm that some species are known for practicing various forms of polyamory. Oh, sometimes a female has multiple male partners. In some cases, it's the opposite. So. So I think that's where maybe Louise was getting at. What did she say? I have a suspicion, but it seems kind of extreme.
Nate Hegyi: Oh, is she talking about a frog orgy?
Taylor Quimby: He says, tentatively as the host of an outdoor podcast.
Nate Hegyi: Can I say that on public radio?
Taylor Quimby: You can. You can.
Nate Hegyi: So it's a frog orgy?
Taylor Quimby: Yeah, exactly. I can't exactly say what the details here are, but I just want to point out that group sex, it's not as extreme in the animal kingdom as one might be led to believe by the sensational but admittedly funny headlines on this subject. I read one that said “Kinky frogs build secret underwater sex chambers.”
Nate Hegyi: [laughs] Dirty frogs.
Taylor Quimby: Another that reads the “annual Alpine Frog Orgy.”
Nate Hegyi: I like kinky frogs.
Taylor Quimby: I should say, I've spoken to biologists and writers who think that this kind of writing maybe does a mild disservice to the science. But frogs in particular are known to push the boundaries. So for example, there was a study of Australian gray foam nest tree frogs that showed 90% of females mated with ten or more partners at a time. This is called simultaneous polyandry.
Nate Hegyi: Wow. So is this like a form of competition? Like like a big, I don't know, like wrestling match where the frogs kind of they're fighting for the chance to to mate?
Taylor Quimby: No, no. And I think that's what makes this kind of special. This brand of frog group sex is actually cooperative, so there's no real fighting. The female lays her eggs on a tree branch. The males kind of gather around and they fertilize them by releasing sperm and just sort of whipping them up into this foamy substance. Whole process is apparently very amicable. And according to the study, it makes for sturdier frog babies than frogs that that are monogamous.
Nate Hegyi: Like sturdier frog babies. That's that's how scientists put it, right? Sturdier frog babies.
Taylor Quimby: That is actually the name of the paper.
Nate Hegyi: No, it's not. Is it really?
Taylor Quimby: No, no, no, no.
[mux]
Nate Hegyi: All right. So thank you, Louise. And listeners, if you have any pictures you want to share with us on our Twitter page, we're going to do our best to answer them. So what's next?
Taylor Quimby: All right. So this seems like a perfect time to transition to another forest foam related question This one answered by producer Justine Paradise earlier this spring.
Mihaela LaRoche: This is Mihaela, Mihaela LaRoche. I’m calling from northern New Hampshire. Every time it rains, there is a white foam forming at the base of the tall big white oak and pine trees on our property… and it disappears when the rain stops. What is that? Thank you.
Nate Hegyi: [reflectively] A white foam… that forms on white oak and pine trees… every time it rains.
Justine Paradis: So to answer this question, I called up Rebecca Roy…
Rebecca: This is such a great question. What a wonderful observation!
Justine Paradis: This is Rebecca Roy. Rebecca manages educational programming for Vermont State Parks. And her background is in natural sciences – including, importantly for this, a stint teaching chemistry. Because… to get right to the answer:
Rebecca: What your listener is seeing is a crude soap that’s forming.
Nate: A crude soap?
Justine Paradis: Yeah!
Nate: I assumed soap is what I wash myself with in the shower… I didn’t really think trees could make soap.
Justine Paradis: Well, it’s what’s happening ON the trees. So, if you’re making soap yourself at home, you essentially need four elements: a fat or oil; an alkali, or basic – like some salts or ash, for instance, can be mixed to make lye; water; and a mixing force. And these elements all come together on Mihaela’s trees in her yard.
Nate: Yeah, but how?
Justine Paradis: So, ordinarily outside, there are tons of particles just floating around in the air. These particles include some of the ingredients of soap.
Rebecca: Salts and acids and alkali substances, in the air, in dust… when it’s dry, these particles are floating around and sticking to surfaces all over the place.
Justine Paradis: Surfaces like trees. And meanwhile, there are oils in the tree bark.
Rebecca: As it’s dry out, it’s also warmer because we don’t have regular rain cooling it down. Those oils rise to the top.
Nate: Okay, we’ve got our first two elements: fat or oil, and the dust, which contains alkalis.
Justine Paradis: And then, you add your third element – water. When it rains, these salts and fats and acids and alkalis all dissolve and start flowing down the tree trunks. Which then provides our fourth and final element.
Rebecca: The water mixes with oxygen on the surfaces, especially on larger trees, and it mixes up this crude soap. It’s actually bonding chemically to create soap.
Justine Paradis: As for the foam – If you think about, Nate, what happens when you’re scrubbing a soap dish in the sink?
Nate Hegyi: It gets all foamy, it foams up.
Justine Paradis: Yeah – and remember, Mihaela specifically mentioned white oaks and pines. This tree soap phenomenon is not exclusive to those trees, and it’s not even exclusive to trees – it’s just you need a ton of surface area and something to churn it into foam for it to be observable by us. And, think about the texture of those trees.
Nate: Right, a pine or an oak might have rougher bark than, I dunno, a birch tree or something like that.
Justine Paradis: Which means more suds!
Rebecca: So it’s a combination of that surface area, so they’re really big trees, with that really furrowed rough bark, working together to make it something that we observe.
Justine Paradis: So it might also happen in other places, like on a blade of grass, but it just wouldn’t be observable to us.
Nate: Okay.
Justine Paradis: But there is another outdoor place with a lot of surface area and a lot of mixing where you might observe this – Nate, can you guess where?
Nate: Hmm… I keep thinking about a parking lot… is that a silly answer?
Justine Paradis: No, it’s not silly! You can also see it on the roads!
Nate: Yeah!!!
Rebecca: Car wheels are stirring up that mixture and making that foaming soap.
Nate: Okay, question for you, Justine Paradis: can you actually use the soap?
Justien: I asked her that!
Nate: You did ask her? What did she say?
Rebecca: You probably could! Its a really… it’s very crude. That would be a wonderful experiment to do. I would love to see if your listener is up for trying that out and reporting back to us what they discover.
[mux]
Nate Hegyi: That was Rebecca Roy and producer Justine Paradise. And because this is turning out to be a very visual episode, we'll definitely make sure to link to some pictures on the show post at outside and radio dot org.
Taylor Quimby: And if you do try and wash your hands with tree foam, please take a picture of that. I am not encouraging you to do this, but I am super curious.
Nate Hegyi: If it works. Me too. Okay, so what's next?
Taylor Quimby: Next up, we're going to hear from producer Jessica Hunt. She took on a question about backyard gardening.
Jessica Hunt: And this week's question comes from Kevin on Instagram who asks: “What is the best filling for a raised garden bed?”
Nate Hegyi: Oh that’s a wonderful question. I’m not a great gardener but I’m trying, I have a few raised beds but I feel like we should probably explain what they are…
Jessica Hunt: So there are a few different types of raised beds, but I think most people are thinking of plots that are enclosed in what looks like a sandbox.
You can get more food out of less space, you can plant earlier because they drain water better..than a plot in the ground.
Nate Hegyi: Easier on the back, they’re higher.
Jessica Hunt: Definitely - but maybe the biggest benefit is that you can control what soil, or combination of soils, you put in there. So you can start out with ideal soil.
So to get some tips on what to fill those raised beds with, I reached out to Yolanda Burrell, she is the founder of Pollinate Farm, an urban farm in Oakland, California’
Yolanda Burrell: And my answer pretty much all the time is it depends.
Nate Hegyi: Okay, classic Outside/Inbox answer: “it depends.”
Yolanda Burrell:It depends on where you are. It depends on your budget. It depends on your climate, all all the things.
Nate Hegyi: So people put a lot of different stuff in their raised beds, but I do know that the main ingredient is going to be soil.
Yolanda Burrell: if you're going to buy soil, get the best quality that you can, I prefer anything with an organic label on it instead of a conventional label.
Jessica Hunt: Now I should clarify, because this is confusing - all soil is organic, in that it has organic material in it - but it can also be labeled organic, meaning there were not pesticides or anything used in it.
Nate Hegyi: Okay so, buy some soil - check. What should I be mixing it with?
Jessica Hunt: There are lots of recipes online, so I don’t think there’s a perfect combination that we can recommend - but I’ve seen things like 40% soil, 40% compost or organic matter and 20% something to help keep the filling loose and well drained. That could be vermiculite, coconut fiber, or even just sand.
Nate Hegyi: It’s like a baking recipe, but with dirt. I love it.
Jessica Hunt: Actually dirt is technically something else, but we’re not going to get into that haha.
Nate Hegyi: So for advanced level gardeners - is there a way to make your own filling, versus buying it from a store?
Jessica Hunt: Definitely. Here’s Yolanda.
Yolanda Burrell: Get yourself a big wheelbarrow, get some local topsoil that hasn't come from like a construction site or a brownfield or something like that. You want to make sure that it is good topsoil.
Jessica Hunt: Then you need to add organic materials, like what’s left of leaves from the fall raking that’s broken down. It adds some nutrients. And, you also want to prevent the soil from compacting, and help with drainage.
Yolanda Burrell: And you can then add your own amendments, you can add your own compost or your own steer manure or rock phosphate, rock dust, any kind of minerals that you want.
Jessica Hunt: Another thing you you might want to think about, if you’re doing raised beds, is the height.
Nate Hegyi: oh, so if you don’t want to stoop over and kill your back, you might want it higher…which means more soil.
Jessica Hunt: Right - so let’s say you want to do a two-foot bed, so you don’t have to bend so far down. But not all plants need 2 feet or more of soil. Herbs and flowers need only about 6 to 12 inches of soil, tomatoes have very shallow roots, but things like carrots or beets need deep soil. So consider the depth you need, because, you maybe able to fill the bottom foot with twigs, or other yard waste.
Yolanda Burrell: And then put the soil on top of it, and you're basically composting in place.
Nate Hegyi: Oh that’s a great idea, I’ve always just put rocks in the bottom of my raised beds.
Jessica Hunt: There’s actually this really neat centuries old traditional method of building raised beds, where you layer the ground with old rotten logs, and then you add layers of rock, and soil, and compost - and it makes this kind of long raised lump that feeds the soil nutrients as the rotten logs decompose. It’s called Hugelkulter, a german word for “mound culture”.
Nate Hegyi: Hugelkulter, I love that word. Hugelkulter.
Jessica Hunt: So Nate, what’s your favorite thing to grow?
Nate Hegyi: Kale. Kale is the easiest to grow.
Jessica Hunt: I’ve had the most success with cucumbers.
Nate Hegyi: And Yolanda? What does she like to grow?
Yolanda Burrell: Tomatoes. They're like puppies. I can't I can't stop bringing them home. There's so many different shapes, sizes, colors. And I. I hate myself in, like, late July, August, when we're here in California harvesting tomatoes. And, you know, the kitchen looks like a murder scene because there's just just like, hot sauce everywhere. But it's it's so much fun.
[mux]
Nate Hegyi: That was Yolanda Burrell and producer Jessica Hunt with an exciting new use for compost. Definitely want to start a hugelkultur of my own someday.
Taylor Quimby: It would be really fascinating to have one in your yard. I think people would ask you about it all the time. Like, what is that mound?
Nate Hegyi: It would be a conversation piece for sure.
Taylor Quimby: Yeah.
Nate Hegyi: So it is time to take a break. But before we do just want to remind folks that Outside In is a listener supported podcast. We literally can't do segments like Outside Inbox without your questions, and we couldn't make anything at all without your financial support. So to be a part of the outside end team, donate at outside in radio dot org or by following the link in the show notes and send us an email with your questions anytime, day or night. We'll be right back.
[break]
Welcome back to Outside In. I'm Nate Heggie, here with producer Taylor Quimby, and we are answering your spring-related questions. And earlier this year, we got not one - but three questions about moss. Taylor you dug into these - what was the first one?
Taylor Quimby: First, Carolyn from Instagram asked: Does moss get damaged when you walk on it?
So anyway, I reached out to a passionate advocate for moss….
Her name is Nat Cleavitt, and she’s a plant ecologist with Cornell University, but works primarily at the Hubbard Experimental Forest here in NH. And I asked her if walking on moss does damage.
Nat Cleavitt: So I would say the short answer is yes.
Taylor Quimby: But but but…. how much really depends on the details.
Nat Cleavitt: How much walking? How much do the walker weight, are they moving slow are are they running. Are they barefoot or are they wearing boots?
Nate Hegyi: This is a good sell for your Vibram Fivefingers shoes. They’re nice and tight, less surface area. Better to walk on moss for.
Taylor Quimby: Very true. So Nat says that, unlike grasses which grow from the base of the blade, you can walk on grass and it’s generally fine, moss has this three-dimensional growing structure that makes it more vulnerable to squashing.
Especially if it’s really dried out.
Nat Cleavitt: So generally being wet is going to give you a lot more protection. It makes your cells a lot more elastic. It also fills in all the air spaces
Nate Hegyi: Okay, but what about like… snow and ice? I mean, if moss can be damaged by walking, how does it survive several feet of snowpack and ice in colder climates?
Taylor Quimby: Well Nat says snow falls gradually - so it fills up the pockets inside the moss, so there’s just not the same level of compaction. She actually told me this one wild fact about how there are mosses that can grow two meters under the ice in Antarctica.
Nate Hegyi: How does that happen? Don’t you need sun two and half miles down, is the ice that clear?
Nat Cleavitt: If you’ve ever built yourself an ice cave or an igloo, there’s still light in there. It’s not totally dark. And so, these plants evolve to use very low light levels.
Nate Hegyi: Oh that’s so sweet. I feel like there’s a metaphor there. Holding on to a little bit of hope, that there might be a glimmer of hope, a glimmer of light that you can hold on to and grow and become magical and mossy.
So what are the other questions?
Taylor Quimby: Ok so got an email from a listener named Tricia, and she wants to know, what makes the moss on trees seem to "light up" on rainy days?
Nate Hegyi: Does that happen all the time in New Hampshire?
Taylor Quimby: Well I thought it was just, maybe it’s shinier, so it looks brighter. But apparently this isn’t just Trish’s imagination, rain really can make moss - and lichen - change color and really pop. Basically, all that moisture kind of makes them unfurl and get bigger, like wetting a dry sponge.
Nate Hegyi: Oh that makes sense, not like lighting up necessarily but becoming more greener, becoming more vibrant when it rains.
Taylor Quimby: Yeah, they don’t like glow.
Nate Hegyi: Oh see, I thought she was talking about glowing moss! But becoming more green, absolutely I’ve seen that.
Nat Cleavitt: If you get a spray bottle and go out in the summer when they’re dry, and spritz ‘em. And it’s just magic.
Nate Hegyi: Ok, last question: Tricia also wanted to know, “Is moss on trees a good or bad sign for the tree or surrounding woods?”
Taylor Quimby: Moss almost never does damage to trees… and really, it’s usually just a sign that you’re looking at older-growth forest, but generally that moss a ton of ecosystem benefits.
Nat Cleavitt: They’re not just important for themselves, they’re whole worlds. There are so many organisms that depend on these miniature jungles.
Taylor Quimby: But they’re not just good for forests… sphagnum moss bog ecosystems are perhaps, pound for pound, the most powerful carbon sinks on the planet - by area, a mossy bog can hold twice as much carbon as a redwood forest.
In Scotland, there are huge areas where conservationists are actually fighting climate change, by ironically, cutting trees because they’re trying to restore the bogs that were drained just a few decades ago. Because they’re going to have more impact.
Nate Hegyi: So bogs, maybe not as classically beautiful as a redwood forest, but arguably very very good for the environment.
Taylor Quimby: I think we should rebrand bog, because bog has a kind of negative feel.
Nate Hegyi: It’s one of those words that just sort of sounds sad, like “oh bog.”
Taylor Quimby: I think we should call it a moss festival.
Nate Hegyi: I like moss festival.
Taylor Quimby: Okay. Done.
[mux]
Nate Hegyi: Thank you, Taylor, for teaching me not to walk on moss.
Taylor Quimby: Were you walking on moss before? Yeah. It feels great. It does feel good on the toes.
Nate Hegyi: Growing up, going to my grandparents house in Victoria, British Columbia, a very rainy, moody area of the world. Their lawn wasn't actually a lawn. It was just moss. And it felt amazing to walk on.
Taylor Quimby: Oh, I bet. I bet my dad tried to have, like a a moss and lichen pathway. Yeah, but he basically was like, you can't walk on it. So nobody used the pathway.
Nate Hegyi: So it's not a pathway.
Taylor Quimby: Then it was just it appeared to be a pathway from a distance.
Nate Hegyi: He's like, Don't touch it. Don't you put your feet on that.
Taylor Quimby: So funny. Not so funny story for you listeners out there. When I first spoke with Nat, the expert in this story, she misspoke and told me that Moss can grow up to two kilometers under Antarctic ice. And and I were both like, that is the most unbelievable thing I have ever learned in my life.
Nate Hegyi: Blew our minds.
Taylor Quimby: Oh. But then after the piece aired, she sent me an email and was like, Oh, by the way, I meant two meters, not kilometers. And I was like, Uh oh. So to those of you that heard that story go out on the radio, I am so sorry. I hope you have not spread this incorrect moss factoid any farther than I already did. I just want to point out, though, that two meters under the ice is also amazing.
Nate Hegyi: It's amazing if you didn't first hear two kilometers, let this be a lesson to you. Taylor Yes, it was.
Taylor Quimby: It was I was humbled.
Nate Hegyi: So we've reached our last question for the day. And producer Felix Poon answered this question with Justine Paradise on a very special day in January 20, 22. Specialist Day of the year, Squirrel Appreciation Day.
Felix Poon: So we have the perfect question for today, January 21st, because it’s National Squirrel Appreciation Day. Justine, what do you appreciate about squirrels?
Justine Paradis: Well on the TV show Insecure one of the characters points out that squirrels always look like they’re late to work. I appreciate that they always look kinda anxious. Ya know, very busy.
Felix Poon: yeah, they’re always scurrying about.
Justine Paradis: Always scurrying.
Felix Poon: So anyway, in honor of Squirrel Appreciation Day, let’s listen to this squirrel-related question:
Nicolas: Hello Outside/in. This summer I found a dead squirrel in my yard. I buried it in a shallow grave, in a solemn ceremony. I'm wondering how long it'll take for it to decompose. Here are the conditions: I live in Montréal, Canada; my soil is poor but is quite humid; I buried it about 6 inches deep; I made him a Christian cross using chopsticks. Thank you.
Justine Paradis: I mean honestly I love a decomposition question but, this is maybe kinda a ghoulish question to be answering on National Squirrel Appreciation Day?
Felix Poon: Yeah, you know, I thought about this, and I figured, squirrel death is just another part of squirrel life.
Justine Paradis: True.
Felix Poon: So I spoke with Debra Gode, she’s a wildlife rehabilitator, and I asked her what some common causes of injury and death are for squirrels.
Debra Gode: I get a lot of hit by cars, but they also get picked off by hawks and then sometimes they get dropped.
Felix Poon: Debra treats these squirrels by putting them on pain meds, giving them fluids, helping them eat if their face is sore…But obviously, they don’t always survive.
Justine Paradis: So has Debra done any squirrel decomposition experiments herself?
Felix Poon: Unfortunately no, she hasn’t done that. Usually what she does with dead squirrels, uh, she calls it recycling.
Basically she feeds them to predators like turkey vultures, owls and hawks, that she’s also rehabilitating.
So then I talked to a decomposition expert. Her name is Sibyl Bucheli. She’s a researcher at a human decomposition anthropology facility, also known as a body farm.
Sibyl Bucheli: what we're doing is we're studying decomposition so that we can help law enforcement.
Justine Paradis: So this is the sort of place tha you see on like a Sherlock Holmes TV show where people study forensics, like determining the time of death in a homicide or something?
Felix Poon: Yeah. And they study animals as well as humans. And Sibyl says decomposition happens in two ways, from the inside out
Sibyl Bucheli: So inside out your bacteria in your body, …start to take over because there's no more immune system to stop that….your body has digestive juices in the stomach…so all of that starts to decompose the body from the inside out
Felix Poon: And the other way decomposition happens… is from the outside in! AKA, being eaten by things like -
Sibyl Bucheli: insects … vultures, …possums, raccoons.
Felix Poon: …even house cats.
Justine Paradis: Very vicious creatures.
Justine Paradis: But our listener’s squirrel was buried, Nicolas said about 6 inches. But would that have stopped outside in decomposition?
Felix Poon: I mean, 6 inches isn’t very deep. Other animals could’ve just dug it up. And even if they didn’t, coffin flies probably did.
Justine Paradis: Coffin flies…that’s a species?
Felix Poon: Yeah, they’re like teeny tiny flies.
Sibyl Bucheli: they would lay their eggs and then the larvae would hatch and they would feed on the squirrel.
Felix Poon: And then of course there’s also worms and millipedes that could get at it, and they’re also bringing bacteria to the table too.
Sibyl Bucheli: It's beautiful. I mean, it's it's recycling.
Justine Paradis: Recycling!
Felix Poon: It’s the circle of life.
Justine Paradis: So what’s the answer, how long does decomposition actually take?
Felix Poon: Yeah Sibyl said that it’s really weather dependent.
Sibyl Bucheli: If it's warm six inches deep, I'd give it a give it two weeks. If it's cold, six inches deep, I'd give it nothing until spring.
Justine Paradis: Our listener did say he found this squirrel in the summer.
Felix Poon: Yeah, so, two weeks at most, one week if the soil is particularly rich in bacteria.
Justine Paradis: Alright, 1 to 2 weeks, there’s your answer, happy squirrel appreciation day!
Felix Poon: Happy squirrel appreciation day!
[mux]
That was Felix Boon and Justine Paradis. And I don't want to give too much away, but this question wound up opening a big can of worms for Felix. So stay tuned because we're going to learn a lot more about decomposition in the next few weeks.
Taylor Quimby: That is truly a tantalizing cliffhanger for the end of the episode.
Nate Hegyi: And if you want to open a can of worms for the Outside/In team, please send us your question via voicemail. Our email address is outsidein@nhpr.org